I highly recommend seeing the film Doubt, and if every one of the main characters doesn't get nominated for an oscar then I'll probably flip out. It is based on a Tony Award Winning Play and is brought to the screen with such passion and such life that I really felt my heart being tugged at.
The structural originality is something that blows my mind. Meryl Streep for the first act of the film is pretty much a Nazi. She hits boys who don't pay attention during church. She instills fear in the children. May be this is just the libertarian in me talking, but I felt very uncomfortable when she suggested to the teacher that they put a picture of the Pope at the top of the chalk board so that the children would think the teacher had eyes in the back of her head. Talk about totalitarianism. I found Meryl Streep to be highly unsympathetic and Father Flinn to be very sympathetic. He is very open and honest about the concept of Doubt in his sermon which opens the film. He seems honest, tolerant, kind, and progressive. He seems to actually care about the students, unlike Meryl Streep, who just wants to apparently control their humanity.
Point is. Meryl Streep is actually the protagonist. Father Flinn is the antagonist. That is what I love. We don't want to root for the Nazi, but we have to, because we support her determination in exposing the pedophile. I continued to chuckle in my head throughout this movie by asking myself, "can they make this anymore complex." I'm not saying it was hard to understand. I'm saying that the characters are all in difficult situations and you know what - that's life - and I love it how a film can create characters in that very fashion.
I thought the most brilliant shot in the whole film was when Father Flinn knew Meryl Streep had found out. The camera holds on his face for an uncomfortably long time. I was mildly reminded of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. We are staring at the performance. We ask ourselves, "What is going on in his mind?" From my interpretation - his face was a very guilty face. His face did not show me that he was just trying to "protect Donald because he drank the wine." Hoffman did a fantastic job.
In the end. He incriminates himself (at least to the audience and to the Meryl Streep) by falling into her trap and resigning. But the film ends on her admitting that she "has doubts". I had a feeling before the film even began that this film was going to be a metaphor for followers of a religion and how we suffer from doubt.
When Hoffman asks the question "Haven't you ever sinned before?" I believe that Meryl Streep's tears were a foreshadowing of her final line in the film. She knows she has doubts. And the last line of the film isn't just her doubting whether Father Flinn touched Donald, but it is also showing that even a strict Nazi Nun can never be 100% certain in her beliefs. "doubt is as powerful a bond as certainty."
The direction was very smart because I felt always suspicious. Every camera angle was that of an on looker. Every conversation we watched we were eavesdropping. We felt like we weren't supposed to be hearing what we were hearing or seeing what we were seeing.
The film is about making tough choices and being backed into a corner. I always felt like the opposite of nieve/gullibe is untrusting. Some people try so hard to never be gullible that they become untrusting and always have a barrier between themselves and the rest of the world. Meryl Streep has that barrier. She refuses to trust anything Father Flinn says - and that is the issue that Amy Adam's character has with her.
How can we ever be certain of anything?
This film reminded me of 12 Angry Men. The term "beyond a reasonable doubt." Was Father Flinn beyond a reasonable doubt when it came to child molestation? Probably not. But Meryl Streep didn't care.
How can we strike a balance between certainty and doubt? The film never answers that questions because I don't think there is an answer.
The film's purpose (not it's theme) is to show the audience that they are not alone in the world. That when you doubt something - your friends, your family, your religion - you are not alone. That other people suffer from the same doubts and seek some sort of certainty in their lives. It's about understanding that certainty and doubt are apart of humanity and not something that can be solved.
But isn't it great that you're not the only one questioning things?
I just watched this film and I liked it very much but I think you may have missed something I considered. Hoffmans character was gay. This would explain his leaving other parishes, this would explain why he he empathised with the boy, and this is what he was hiding when he said to Streep there were things he could not say. He could not admit to it and still remain a priest. This was my take making the balance of him doing it and not doing it equal.
ReplyDeleteeveryone always projects their OWN thoughts and beliefs onto others... How can you possibly conceive that the priest was gay, simply because he could NOT talk about his previous parishes... ??? If he was NOT a child molester, he would NOT have reacted in such violent fashion when the Nun told me him she had called a nun from his previous parish. Only guilty people are provoked to defend themselves.. because guilt itself is the reason why He reacted so deeply .... you need to deeper your understanding of human nature, and NOT project your own ideas and opinions
DeleteThe irony of this response is that you're doing the exact same thing. Your assertion that ". Only guilty people are provoked to defend themselves.. because guilt itself is the reason why He reacted so deeply" doesn't make sense either. Funny enough, his more silent and subtle expressions and mannerisms worked as better indicators of the possibility of his guilt.
Delete+1 with the perception he was gay, and helping out a young man struggling. In a time when homosexuality was outright damned in the church. It's a beautiful film, it leaves it open all of us in "doubt". But a good point can be made that he was gay, and trying to help out the young man. He was sad when he left. I did not get the pedophile witch hunt in the end.
DeleteMaybe a Feminazi predisposed to a biased opinion would assert so passionately otherwise.
My belief is that he was guilty. This to me was made very clear in the conversation between Meryl and Viola. There was an understanding that something had taken place but she didn't want it to affect Donald attending the school. My question is at the end, when they were on the bench, she said that wrong doing didn't come without it's own consequences and clutched her rosary. The other nun said she understood,then Meryl said she had doubt. Did she get fired for the accusation which she said was not believed?
DeleteTo be honest, the nun thing and how aggressive he became when hearing about this was immediately a sign to me. Why did he want only specific people to talk about his work? And of course the talk she had with the child's mom. I personally believe he was a molester, but I understand the director kind of left all scenarios open. What I liked about Meryl Streep's character is that despite her being narrow-minded in general and specifically about Flynn's lifestyle, way of thinking etc.connecting this with criminal behaviours, she was pretty open-minded for a nun back then regarding the possibility of a priest being a child molester. I liked these two sides of hers. If anything, she could have just ignored all the signs, because a priest is a priest especially so many years ago and she did the exact opposite.
Deletegreat analysis...but did he touched him or didn't he?i couldn't watch it all the way till the end!
ReplyDeleteYou never find out. It just ends with Streep's character worrying that she was wrong and that her possible mistake screwed over Donald and the priest.
DeleteShe didn't screw him over.. he got a promotion. He went to a better church and school... The doubt thing I believe is about everything. Like maybe doubting alittle if the preist had in fact done it.or doubt if GOD exists at all because things aren't always perfect in the world. The way she said DOUBTS ..to me was a doubts about everything or anything because no one is perfect
DeletePigeon, are you an idiot?
ReplyDeleteUnnecessary
DeleteThere is another angle not discussed as much. Sister James was asking and even demsnding things that were none of her business. At one point Father Flynn gave her information and the explanation didn't satisfy her.
ReplyDeleteSister James had already determined Flynn's guilt. The scene in her office where he tells her he can't talk about things could have to do with his oath of confession which is as follows "He cannot be compelled by law to disclose a person's confession or be bound by any oath he takes, e.g. as a witness in a court trial. A priest cannot reveal the contents of a confession either directly, by repeating the substance of what has been said, or indirectly, by some sign, suggestion, or action." In other words some of the questions she was asking he couldn't even reveal the substance of what was said without breaking his oath.
Also remember in her office as they were escalating and he stepped back and attempted to de-escalate when he asked her if she commited a mortal sin and for a moment when she admitted she had there was a brief connection between them, broken when he said he left his sins with his confessor. That seemed to reignite her doubt, I did not take it as an admission of guilt though.
I think in the end rather than continuing to fight her and get her removed he moved on to find a parish more open to his ministry. If he pushed her out he would have become like her, intolerant, rather than doing that he moved on. I don't think his resignation was an admission of guilt.
Only guilty people try to defend themselves... he did this, in a very violent fashion... People who are innocent, do NOT have the compulsion of Guilt which causes them to defend themselves, because they have done NOTHING wrong... and sometimes some people simply KNOW thru their feelings or intuition when someething is wrong... and they dont NEED proof. they simply KNOW... This is called Feminine Wisdom... obviously you dont realize this... !!!!!
DeleteJaguarwitch!...from real life experience , i have seen the not-guilty yell and scream their innocence, because human nature, Jaguarwitch! When someone is accused of something, that in their heart, they know not to be true, can spark overwhelming emotions that explode . When no one wants to listen and show expressive doubt to the accused, hell yes theres gonna be jaguarwitch! a reaction in a "VIOLENT FASHION". Remember this is a movie! A persons own opinion of what they got from the MOVIE, dont make them idiots, its their right to interpret however THEY feel, because they are allowed. Pff....history has proven JAGUARWITCH!, that PROOF is necessary to ensure that the right justice is served. Intuition and a "got a feeling" attitude have killed many all over the world from execution because the system ran on intuition, NOT PROOF!
Delete🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
DeleteYour blind. No man that is true will leave his ground. You fight the good fight. Her white lie exposed him right in front of her. Nuff said.
DeleteFather Flynn isn't guilty, he is not perfect and must have committed a mortal sin in his former parish that was y he fell for her trap. The movie ain't all that complicated once u stop doubting his innocence. And btw, who noticed that d "strict" nun was also protecting that old Rev. Sis from being dismissed if found out that she was going blind? And wen fada flynn asked her she lied... Everything dat nun accused him of, she was d one guilty. Based on d sermons, doubt referred to everybody, gossip referred to sister james and wind refers to father Flynn's past
ReplyDeleteShe was not guilty of child molestation (and we have no way of knowing that the priest was innocent). She lied to protect the nun from discrimination based on her physical disability. She lied to protect someone who'd done nothing wrong. She believed that the priest HAD done something wrong and chose to go with her gut.
DeleteFor me the ending is not Sister James saying she has doubts about Father Flynn being a kiddie fiddler, she is doubting the existence of God. Her she is with a guy who she really believes molested a boy, and with that information chases him from her school , she tells a superior who instead of calling the cops....promotes him. Sister James sees that her church is nothing more than an old boys network where they look after their own. Who with that injustice would not question the organisation they signed up for and everything it stood for.
ReplyDeleteYou are truly gifted with rare perception that sees things as they are ... Well done... I wish more people were like you... Yes, the Nun was doubting the whole establishment because the priest was being "protected" from accountability by his own church. Who on earth would have faith in that type of insidious cover up, so that this type of abuse could continue... as it does today. Well done...
DeleteIt's people with intuition like yours that DIDN'T need PROOF and simply KNEW the truth that burned people at the stake for being witches. Condemning people as you suggest based solely on one's intuition without proof or due process is a very slippery and dangerous slope indeed. Please don't ever enter politics and if you do please put your actual name to these comments so I won't vote for you.
DeleteWhat ^ said. After admitting that there are things he can not say, (that he was gay and would lose his priesthood) Further then he was asked did you give him wine? No. Did you touch him? No. She had it out for him before the incident, and was protecting her own in her own way with the blind nun.
DeleteShe had doubts with her convictions as well as her own faith.
From your other post's it's clear that you are expousing a feminist viewpoint that men are always bad and wrong.
It was clear to me and my wife that the priest was gay, helping a young black man out of place and possibly homosexual out.
Feminazi.
The man was a pedophile period. The mom confirmed her son was gay but she struggled with the situation as the priest was the only one kind to him.i also noticed a reaction from one of the other boys to him during the movie. He snatched away from him on at least 2 occasion s in the movie. Then he made a slick comment about long nails saying keeping them clean makes it ok. The boy jump back.
DeleteThe man was gay not a pedophile.
ReplyDeleteThere's a difference between being a child molester and being a pedophile (pedophiles are born with a mental disorder that is extremely hard to treat partially because the default hate they receive makes them hate themselves. No one is a born a criminal, hence the emphasis I put on the difference between child molester and pedophile.)
Deletewhat the hell. Both are u the same in my book. Life without parole.
DeleteFather Flynn was a pedophile and just as in this film when priests were accused, the church sent them to another parish, and another, etc., followed by a stream of children with broken lives. Meryl Streep's character says you talked to him as if you were the same. Donald's mother already confessed her son was gay and his father hated him for this. He had been moved 3 times in 5 years. Typical church pattern for pedophile priests. There is a scene in the sacristy of Donald sitting in a staircase in his undershirt. The next scene shows Fr. Flynn putting something into Donald's locker and Sr. James sees him. Sr. James looks in the locker and it was Donald's undershirt. When you see Donald dressed to serve mass, his undershirt is visible under the garment. He did not remove it to wear his server's clothes. With the current knowledge we have of how widespread pedophile priests existed in the priesthood, and the church's complicity in covering up these priests, it is more than plausible that Fr. Flynn was a pedophile. After abruptly asking to be transferred, facts show us accused priests were moved to another parish and often to positions of higher authority with access to children. The church has committed a mortgal sin against these children by allowing pedophile priests to continue abusing them parish after parish. Families that went to the people in authority in the church about these creeps, they were met with lies, cover-ups, and disbelief. They were abused again.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you compeletly. The comments declaring angrily his innocence shows a collective denial of abuse. Why is it so instinctual for people to automatically question the accuser. Are they so skeptical in theft claims etc... No only when men are accused of sexual and other forms of abuse. It's ridiculous
DeleteI agree with every word you said ... it’s so obvious that he was a pedophile..
DeletePedophiles were born with a mental disorder that's extremely difficult to treat partially because the default hate they receive leads them to hate themselves. A child molester is a criminal while a pedophile is someone suffering from a condition. Are you going to hate the person or the disorder they suffer from?
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ReplyDeleteArsehole aye!.....pity this wasnt a face to face convo Andrew...so tough with your words pfttt
DeleteWell, as scenes unfold, this move lives up to its name, “Doubt’
ReplyDeleteUndoubtedly, (no pun intended) the viewer needs to pay close watch. It is in my opinion, that Father Flynn genuinely took a special interest in the life of a troubled boy. What the movie fails to show, is the boy confiding his toxic home life with his dad, with Father Flynn.
One scene which opened up many questions, when Donald arrived late for his Sunday alter services; and then randomly asked the other alter boy: “do I look fat?” Donald is an altar boy worried that he looks fat in his church garments. Does this scene suggest that Donald was exposed before Father Flynn?
no, Donald asked like that to ascertain whether he looked good, in the sense of luring Father Flynn, so after that he met Father Flinn and said "I want to be like you, Father". that's just proof that Donald is gay.
DeleteWow it saddens me to see so many people disagree with whether or not he molested boys. It is possible that father Flynn WAS a homosexual and DID comfort the boy and look out for him but it's also possible that he was all those things and he was also having an inappropriate relationship with the boy. Like this isn't a case of one thing or the other it's a likely all of the above answer.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the mom, she had her suspicions but probably thought since her son appeared to welcome the attention, even the illegal ones, and since he was gay that it was ok and actually a good thing he had an adult male figure in his life that was also gay.
But to me the real indicator of guilt was the boys actions. Like based on how much he appeared to enjoy the father's attention, and the look of absolute heartbreak on the boy when the Father ignored him in the hallway and then when the toy he had given him broke revealed the type of feelings the boy had. And the fact that the Father only showed up to comfort the boy after he was bullied because it backed up what he had been saying about looking out for the boy.
And everything he said to meryl Streep's character at the end about how he cares about the boy trying to justify his behavior claiming hes doing nothing wrong because he cares for the boy he's being the father he never had *begin sarcasm *so what's a little molestation when hes going above and beyond his call of duty as a priest that boy should feel lucky.*end sarcasm*
taking into consideration actual real life events that have happened regarding priests in the last 60 or so years I would definitely lean more towards he was guilty because that narrative is exactly how the church handled pedo priests.
The person played by Meryl to my mind was a sensation thinker . Feeling, to my mind as the inferior function, lead to her character's utter irrational conviction, dispite no concrete evidence, the priest was guilty . Fearful of their own feeling function ,( the inferior function as per Jung)
ReplyDeletethinkers unless aware ,to my mind are avidly suspicious of any person with feeling as a dominant function. Those dominant in thinking seem to me to be often moral but yet unethical. Feelers tend to be ethical rather than moral. By such a statement I am not implying feelers do no wrong or evil in the world. This obviauosly is not true. Again thinkers do great good.
The Pharisees collectively, the religious leaders, in Jesus' time to my mind represent thinking as a dominant mode of orientation to reality . Meryl's character to my mind was a sensate thinker.
I felt her approach at times no different to the witch hunts of the past century . Mere personal suspicion based on scanty evidence is not to my mind a good basis for drawing the correct conclusion. It's only a starting point which needs further rigerous investigation in order to avoid such errors of the past century. How many people became innocent victims of such hunts cannot be calculated.
If Father Flynn was guilty of child abuse which to my mind was not at all clear in the film , dispite his outburts and resignation, which to some would prove he was guilty , his guilt neeeded to be exposed by a balanced approach , one not caught up merely in personal projection etc. I have no issue with the initial suspicion re the priests actions, but the way in which these suspicions were handled were to my mind questionable. Suspicion to my mind is only a starting point. To my mind the priest needed much careful observation re his relations with children and a diligent approach to examaning and collecting the evidence.
Of course in the end doubt was the title ofvthe film. Perhaps the intention of the writer and producer was only to keep the viewer in doubt by the staged performances. Just as one was becoming certain either way of the priests guilt or non guilt a scene would be introduced which effectively collapsed that certainty. Certainly life can be maddenly uncertain and perhaps thats the moral of the film ie be careful of absolute convictions without concrete evidence etc. Too many people have been scape goated or convicted of a crime they did not commit due to such.
Having some familarity with Meyers Briggs , Jungian psychology and psychological astrology , it is quite clear to me, people often under duress act out from their inferior function whether that be thinking,feeling, intuition or sensation. To my mind the character of Father Flynn emphasised possibly feeling and intuition with thinking as a possible inferior function hence the reason his outrage and responses did not necessarily prove or disprove his innocence or guilt . He simply was not equipped to defend himself in a way convincing to certain temperaments hence the requirement for hard evidence etc as a basis for conviction.
I had a cousin who was a priest, now dead. I'm pretty sure he was gay. He liked to hang out with the boys of his parish, even bringing Black kids to visit his prejudiced mother (naughty!).
ReplyDeleteHe, like Father Flynn, was one of those charismatic, reform-the-church priests. He went to a priest "rehab" facility, but we never knew exactly what for. I understand that he may have been emotionally attracted to the boys, without sexual activity. I hope this was the case. Luckily all of the older relatives are now dead, so if a post-mortem pedophile priest scandal ever comes out about my cousin, his parents, aunts, and uncles won't have to deal with it.
Whether if the priest molested the boy or not i will never know for sure as a audience I do have my Doubt
ReplyDeleteWhether is the priest is gay or not I will never know for sure I do have Doubt
The only thing I know for sure is Donald’s father beats him at home not for drinking the wine. But for his “ nature”. maybe he display feminine gestures, or his mannerisms.
And maybe that’s what the Priest saw.he maybe feel sorry For the boy and try to help and comfort the boy.
Meryl one the other hands sees what she sees and makes her own conclusions and just goes after it with conviction. But she really has no concrete evidence. Therefore at the end , she too has Doubt
And also the young nun she also has doubt cause she doesn’t know who to believe.
That’s what wonderful about this time of movies. It makes you think and wondering after seeing it. Make you questions your belief system and how you think about people. What we believe is true, may not be. There is no hero here. Everyone is a victims.